5w-30

[GSPHerder]

All of those vids seem to make easy sense, but then why does Toyota recommend 30w's everywhere else but the USA?

I've seen some of the sheer characteristics on 5 w30 a previous vehicle. Based on oil analysis's 5w-35 showed that it didn't sheer like 5w 30 did.

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[izzy]

All of those vids seem to make easy sense, but then why does Toyota recommend 30w's everywhere else but the USA?

CAFE rules I'm sure. Part of a manufactures responsibility is making sure the consumer can't exceed EPA regulations in the way that they operate or service their vehicle. Allowing the consumer to run a 10w30 would lower their MPGs potentially increasing emissions (slightly).

Same reason why manuals have rev hang etc

 

[Sner]

I watched it- I like that guy. He makes some great points about oil change practices and oil quality in other regions.
I've spent a lot of years building and racing 4 cylinder engines, and we always adjust the oil weight based on what we set the bearing clearances to, and monitor oil pressure at hot idle and under load. I'm curious what the rod and main bearing clearances are on these engines but I'm certain they are really tight.

Think that clearances would matter less given it is true other regions use different grades. I think the whole notion that light oils are used for emissions only are inaccurate. I do believe that operating conditions are a bigger factor. Types of roads dirty/clean, climate, moisture levels in the air, driving habits of people in a country, play bigger factors. But there is no conspiracy that they use light grade oils for emissions to satisfy North America. Let’s flip it around, Toyota would admit that they engineered an engine to last longer in some climates than in other climates ? The same engine that uses a heavier grade oil will last longer in some areas than engines built with a lighter oil in North America? A crazy notion. They’re engineered to be equally reliable no matter where you live.

 

[Sner]

There is no such thing as “engineered for 0W-20.” If one oil works, so will a slightly thicker oil. What is ironic about the statement that engines are “engineered for” 0W-20 is that plenty of engines are actually tested and designed on thicker oil and then they ship them a grade lower because of CAFE/economy reasons. The 3UR-FE was one of those. Same for 1GR-FE and then one year all of a sudden 20 grade was recommended. Jeep did it with the 3.8L & 3.6L. Do we really think the testing being done on one grade and then subbing in a lower grade last minute is truly what is best for the consumer?

The video you linked does nothing to explain anything either. It was a bunch of his opinion that essentially if a problem is gonna happen, it’s gonna happen regardless of oil viscosity (despite that not being proven - a thicker oil could have likely provided enough protection to prevent the wear that may have started on 0W-20). That is the gist of what he said and he offered no actual proof of anything other than to beg people to follow the owners manual with no actual reasons of why to do so. He gave no proof of anything and then ended it on “do you want to find out? I don’t” which still says nothing.

People are against 0W-20 because it comes at a time in the car world where literally every design decision made weighs fuel economy as part of the decision. It is very clear that the manufacturers are up against it with the EPA requirements and they have to do all sorts of things to comply. There is no reason to even begin to trust that the owner’s manual recommended viscosity is actually what’s best for the owner. It is all about what complies best for EPA regulations.

So is your suggestion that because Toyota makes these engines for different countries and uses different oil grades in each of the countries that Toyotas engines will last longer in some countries over others if you use the recommended oil for that country?

 

[BLtheP]

So is your suggestion that because Toyota makes these engines for different countries and uses different oil grades in each of the countries that Toyotas engines will last longer in some countries over others if you use the recommended oil for that country?

No, they do not make different engines for different countries. That would be an absurd business practice. This is exactly what pokes holes in the “tolerance (clearance)” theory people love to talk about, because clearances don’t change the oil viscosity recommendation. There is no different engine build spec to suggest different viscosity recommendations. If there were, then what makes 0W-20 here ideal would immediately make it not recommended in the other countries….yet 0W-20 is still in the allowable viscosities of other countries because it is ultimately the same engine being discussed.

My suggestion is that the same engine here vs in another country may live a better life in the other country if the owner uses one of the higher viscosities listed in the manual in their overseas engine.

Let’s take all of the economy stuff out of the question and plant you in Mexico. You simply live there, bought a truck, and have no idea what people in the US/Canada do. You see your owners manual tells you all of the following choices are fine with no other context aside from not running 10W-30 below 0°F or -18°C:

0W-20
5W-20
5W-30
10W-30

What would be your default choice? 0W-20 because it’s measurably better in some way? Probably not. What clearance differences did they make to the engine to “allow” for not one oil choice but four choices instead? They didn’t do anything. They just shipped the engine to a different country where there are different rules. That is the only difference.

This is proven in other areas as well. The 2GR in the third gen called for 0W-20 in Canada/US, while in Mexico it had a chart going up to 15W-40. That is per the owner’s manual. When you look at the factory service manual (applicable to all countries) it mentions that any ILSAC GF oil is fine (which includes 0W-20 through 10W-30) and then it also separately lists 15W-40 as also being fine. Again, that is the factory service manual which is applicable for ALL trucks regardless of location.

My Nissan Frontier mentioned 5W-30 on the owner’s manual, but when you look at the factory service manual, it indicated that anything from 5W-30 to 20W-50 was perfectly fine. Same story.

None of this is new. It is just the regulations we live under. I’ve done enough research to prove to my own satisfaction that thicker oil is not only acceptable but is a good idea for the long term. 0W-20 may be fine in general for most but that doesn’t make it the best choice for all. It is almost certainly not the best choice in any scenario aside from extreme cold. Even then, anything 0W-20 can handle, 5W-20 could also handle and 5W-20 is much more stable, so I’d go with that if I insisted on a 20 grade oil.

Not only all of the above but the engineers don’t choose the actual viscosity most of the time. They validate the minimum requirements and may even suggest several different viscosities and the marketing department makes the book with the actual recommendation. It is all regulation appeasement, it is not typically what’s best for the owner or vehicle.

 

[BLtheP]

Sometimes, I find the Motor Oil Geek a struggle to watch, but he says it's about shear stability, not so much about viscosity. He adds that 5w-30 is twice as likely to shear out of grade as 0w-20 oils.

Of note, he bought a 4th-gen Taco, and at his first oil change, he used 0w-20.

I’m not a huge fan but I do respect his background. While he did mention what you said, he also mentioned that if 5W-30 does shear, it doesn’t seem to matter much. Whereas when 0W-20 shears, there is measurable added wear from it happening. He did put in 0W-20 for his first change but he also said that is for break in. He said eventually he’ll be running 5W-20 at minimum because he doesn’t need 0W-20 where he lives and because he believes 5W-20 to be the most shear stable oil grade.

 

[maxx075]

I just use molasses

 

[BLtheP]

Here is something to add to the discussion about clearances (which people often incorrectly refer to as "tolerances"):

I gathered up info from the 2GR FSM and our T24A FSM. Many would probably argue that these are irrelevant comparisons because the engines are so different with one being a high revving NA V6 while the other is a low-ish revving high torque turbo 4. Yet they have almost identical clearances anyways and even do have identical clearances on some items.

Component	T24A-FTS (Turbo 2.4L I4)	2GR-FKS (NA 3.5L V6)
Camshaft journal oil clearance (No.1)	0.027–0.060 mm	0.032–0.071 mm
Camshaft journal oil clearance (other journals)	0.025–0.062 mm	0.025–0.062 mm
Valve guide oil clearance (intake)	0.025–0.060 mm	0.025–0.060 mm
Valve guide oil clearance (exhaust)	0.030–0.065 mm	0.030–0.065 mm
Connecting rod bearing oil clearance	0.035–0.067 mm	0.032–0.052 mm
Crankshaft main bearing oil clearance	0.020–0.041 mm	0.019–0.035 mm
Crankshaft thrust clearance	0.04–0.24 mm	0.04–0.24 mm
Connecting rod thrust clearance	0.16–0.51 mm	0.15–0.40 mm
Piston-to-wall oil clearance	0.004–0.047 mm	0.008–0.050 mm
Piston pin oil clearance (piston)	0.001–0.007 mm	0.002–0.004 mm
Piston pin oil clearance (rod)	0.005–0.011 mm	0.005–0.011 mm

In several cases they are literally the same specification.

Examples:

• Valve guide clearance: identical
• Cam journal clearance: identical
• Piston pin clearance: identical
• Thrust clearance: identical

Some clearances are actually looser on the turbo engine

Examples:

Rod bearing clearance

• T24A: 0.035–0.067 mm
• 2GR: 0.032–0.052 mm

The turbo engine actually allows more clearance in this case.


Now, I understand the 2GR is also a modern engine with a 0W-20 owner’s manual spec (at least in the US and Canada), so some people might think this comparison doesn’t really prove much. But as I said earlier, the 2GR-FKS was approved for up to 15W-40, which is only one step away from 20W-50.

I’ve also compared the 2GR to the 3UR-FE in the past. The 3UR was recommended for 0W-20, but it was originally designed around 5W-30 and the FSM actually approves viscosities all the way up to 20W-50. When you look at the specs, the 3UR and 2GR clearances are almost identical as well.

So what we’re seeing is that a bunch of these engines — even ones from different eras — all have very similar clearances across the board. That just reinforces the point that clearances generally don’t drive oil choice, and honestly that argument never made much sense to begin with.

If you think about how viscosity works across temperature, it becomes even more obvious. All of these oils cross each other somewhere along the temperature curve. For example, if you start a vehicle on a cold winter day with 0W-20 and drive it until it reaches operating temperature, that oil has already passed through a much wider viscosity range than a 20W-50 sitting at summer ambient temperature ever would. In fact, cold 0W-20 is significantly thicker than 20W-50 at summer ambient temps.

So the engine has to be able to tolerate that entire viscosity swing anyway. Because of that, clearance specs alone can’t realistically “rule out” certain viscosities. Even the thinnest oils become very thick on cold starts, and the engine has to handle that every single day. This is the entire reason that minimum temperature requirements (the chart) for the thicker oils exist - to make sure you aren't running something that will be too thick on a cold day. Beyond that, the engine doesn't care what you use.

 

[izzy]

Here is something to add to the discussion about clearances (which people often incorrectly refer to as "tolerances"):

I gathered up info from the 2GR FSM and our T24A FSM. Many would probably argue that these are irrelevant comparisons because the engines are so different with one being a high revving NA V6 while the other is a low-ish revving high torque turbo 4. Yet they have almost identical clearances anyways and even do have identical clearances on some items.

Component	T24A-FTS (Turbo 2.4L I4)	2GR-FKS (NA 3.5L V6)
Camshaft journal oil clearance (No.1)	0.027–0.060 mm	0.032–0.071 mm
Camshaft journal oil clearance (other journals)	0.025–0.062 mm	0.025–0.062 mm
Valve guide oil clearance (intake)	0.025–0.060 mm	0.025–0.060 mm
Valve guide oil clearance (exhaust)	0.030–0.065 mm	0.030–0.065 mm
Connecting rod bearing oil clearance	0.035–0.067 mm	0.032–0.052 mm
Crankshaft main bearing oil clearance	0.020–0.041 mm	0.019–0.035 mm
Crankshaft thrust clearance	0.04–0.24 mm	0.04–0.24 mm
Connecting rod thrust clearance	0.16–0.51 mm	0.15–0.40 mm
Piston-to-wall oil clearance	0.004–0.047 mm	0.008–0.050 mm
Piston pin oil clearance (piston)	0.001–0.007 mm	0.002–0.004 mm
Piston pin oil clearance (rod)	0.005–0.011 mm	0.005–0.011 mm

In several cases they are literally the same specification.

Examples:

• Valve guide clearance: identical
• Cam journal clearance: identical
• Piston pin clearance: identical
• Thrust clearance: identical

Some clearances are actually looser on the turbo engine

Examples:

Rod bearing clearance

• T24A: 0.035–0.067 mm
• 2GR: 0.032–0.052 mm

The turbo engine actually allows more clearance in this case.


Now, I understand the 2GR is also a modern engine with a 0W-20 owner’s manual spec (at least in the US and Canada), so some people might think this comparison doesn’t really prove much. But as I said earlier, the 2GR-FKS was approved for up to 15W-40, which is only one step away from 20W-50.

I’ve also compared the 2GR to the 3UR-FE in the past. The 3UR was recommended for 0W-20, but it was originally designed around 5W-30 and the FSM actually approves viscosities all the way up to 20W-50. When you look at the specs, the 3UR and 2GR clearances are almost identical as well.

So what we’re seeing is that a bunch of these engines — even ones from different eras — all have very similar clearances across the board. That just reinforces the point that clearances generally don’t drive oil choice, and honestly that argument never made much sense to begin with.

If you think about how viscosity works across temperature, it becomes even more obvious. All of these oils cross each other somewhere along the temperature curve. For example, if you start a vehicle on a cold winter day with 0W-20 and drive it until it reaches operating temperature, that oil has already passed through a much wider viscosity range than a 20W-50 sitting at summer ambient temperature ever would. In fact, cold 0W-20 is significantly thicker than 20W-50 at summer ambient temps.

So the engine has to be able to tolerate that entire viscosity swing anyway. Because of that, clearance specs alone can’t realistically “rule out” certain viscosities. Even the thinnest oils become very thick on cold starts, and the engine has to handle that every single day. This is the entire reason that minimum temperature requirements (the chart) for the thicker oils exist - to make sure you aren't running something that will be too thick on a cold day. Beyond that, the engine doesn't care what you use.

Interesting, sounds like 5w anything is probably fine as long as you live somewhere somewhat temperate. 5w20 probably would be a good choice too and provide more shear stability for those in warmer climates.

Maybe only 10w30 / 5w40 if you're really pushing it in hot climates.

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