5w-30

[32spoke]

I don't usually pay much attention to these arguments, but here in central/southern New Mexico with high 90s to low 100s every day in the summer, I run 5W-30 in the summer and 0W-20 in the winter where we get down to single digits. That's just a personal choice. My colleague in northern Chihuahua runs 5W-30 all year that's recommended for him. I figure since I'm a couple hundred miles north, I'll split the difference.

As you wrote, this undermines Dennis’s argument.. and again, my contention that Toyota only recommends 0w20 for CAFE rating. To the credit of Dennis, he want more than my anecdotal evidence, and he is correct. When oil samples are tested for this engine, making a comparison, then we will have an empirical answer. With heat management being a concern in hotter environments, it seems likely that Toyota offers oil viscosity as high as 10w30 for hot climates. Since the United States has the same high temps, like in Arizona as compared to Mexico, it begs the question as to why Toyota would only recommend 0w20 in the United States for this engine- to me. It is a logical argument but can only be verified by a Toyota power plant engineer familiar with the decision for only 0w20 for the United States, vs Mexico/spain/russia, etc…. Or an oil comparison test, on this engine.

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[DENNISD]

As you wrote, this undermines Dennis’s argument.. and again, my contention that Toyota only recommends 0w20 for CAFE rating. To the credit of Dennis, he want more than my anecdotal evidence, and he is correct. When oil samples are tested for this engine, making a comparison, then we will have an empirical answer. With heat management being a concern in hotter environments, it seems likely that Toyota offers oil viscosity as high as 10w30 for hot climates. Since the United States has the same high temps, like in Arizona as compared to Mexico, it begs the question as to why Toyota would only recommend 0w20 in the United States for this engine- to me. It is a logical argument but can only be verified by a Toyota power plant engineer familiar with the decision for only 0w20 for the United States, vs Mexico/spain/russia, etc…. Or an oil comparison test, on this engine.

I completely agree that CAFE may influence Toyota's North American viscosity recommendation. I've never argued that fuel economy regulations play no role in these decisions.

Where I think we still differ is that proving CAFE influences the recommendation does not automatically prove that 5W-30 produces better durability outcomes in the T24A-FTS.

Those are two separate questions.

In fact, I think your last paragraph actually supports my position. You said the argument can only really be verified by a Toyota engineer involved in the decision or by actual testing on this engine.

That's exactly why I've been hesitant to make strong claims about 5W-30 being superior.

At this point, I think the evidence supports the idea that Toyota considers multiple viscosities acceptable globally. What I don't think has been demonstrated is that North American owners running 0W-20 are sacrificing meaningful durability by following the factory recommendation.

That's the leap I've been questioning all along.

 

[Andrace]

Honestly, this is one of the more rational takes in the thread.

You're acknowledging that it's a personal choice based on climate, operating conditions, and your own comfort level rather than claiming Toyota got it wrong.

I don't have any issue with that position.

Where I've pushed back is when people take the next step and claim that 5W-30 is demonstrably superior for durability in this engine without actually having the data to support it.

"Personal preference within Toyota's approved viscosity range" is a much easier argument to defend than "Toyota's North American recommendation is wrong."

What would be guiding the personal preference of that example, and also make that decision a smart one?

 

[32spoke]

I completely agree that CAFE may influence Toyota's North American viscosity recommendation. I've never argued that fuel economy regulations play no role in these decisions.

Where I think we still differ is that proving CAFE influences the recommendation does not automatically prove that 5W-30 produces better durability outcomes in the T24A-FTS.

Those are two separate questions.

In fact, I think your last paragraph actually supports my position. You said the argument can only really be verified by a Toyota engineer involved in the decision or by actual testing on this engine.

That's exactly why I've been hesitant to make strong claims about 5W-30 being superior.

At this point, I think the evidence supports the idea that Toyota considers multiple viscosities acceptable globally. What I don't think has been demonstrated is that North American owners running 0W-20 are sacrificing meaningful durability by following the factory recommendation.

That's the leap I've been questioning all along.

Respectfully, I don’t think it’s a leap.. that is why Toyota engineers offer a variance on oil spec in similar climates, but not the United States- hence the logical argument of Russia having very cold weather and Toyota suggesting 0w20, and southern Russia is warmer and suggesting 5w30. But only 0w20 in the untied states.. no different than GM now using 0w40 oil in May 6.2 engines that originally required 0w20. This is one the engines that passed the “noise test” and GM bumped up the warranty duration and bumped upon the oil viscosity.

 

[DENNISD]

What would be guiding the personal preference of that example, and also make that decision a smart one?

The same thing that guides a lot of owner decisions that fall within an acceptable range: risk tolerance.

Some people change oil every 5,000 miles instead of 10,000. Some use premium fuel when regular is permitted. Some replace transmissions fluid earlier than the maintenance schedule.

Those choices can be perfectly rational without proving they improve outcomes.

The difference is that a rational preference and a demonstrated improvement are not the same thing.

If someone in southern New Mexico prefers 5W-30 because it gives them additional comfort margin during sustained high-temperature operation, that's a perfectly reasonable personal choice.

Where I continue to draw the line is when comfort margin gets rebranded as proven durability improvement.

Those are two different claims.

Respectfully, I don’t think it’s a leap.. that is why Toyota engineers offer a variance on oil spec in similar climates, but not the United States- hence the logical argument of Russia having very cold weather and Toyota suggesting 0w20, and southern Russia is warmer and suggesting 5w30. But only 0w20 in the untied states.. no different than GM now using 0w40 oil in May 6.2 engines that originally required 0w20. This is one the engines that passed the “noise test” and GM bumped up the warranty duration and bumped upon the oil viscosity.

Respectfully, I think that's where we're still parting ways.

You're treating the possibility that Toyota could be wrong as evidence that Toyota is wrong.

The GM 6.2 example is actually a perfect illustration of my point. GM didn't increase viscosity because people speculated about protection margins on forums. They increased viscosity after there was evidence of a problem—failures, investigations, warranty actions, and a revised recommendation.

That's a data-driven conclusion.

With the T24A-FTS, we're starting from the opposite direction. The argument is essentially that because Toyota allows thicker oils in some markets and because CAFE likely influences North American recommendations, there must be a durability benefit to moving thicker.

Maybe there is. Maybe there isn't.

But that's still a hypothesis, not evidence.

The Russian, Mexican, and Spanish charts demonstrate that Toyota considers multiple viscosities acceptable. What they don't demonstrate is that North American owners following the factory recommendation are giving up meaningful durability.

That's the distinction I've been trying to make all along.

 

[GSPHerder]

Once again no one cares what oil you use, you're the only one trying to defend a position Dennis. This thread is for people to post oil analysis so that we can all learn what works and doesn't, not only by weight but also by brand and additives. Post an analysis, or start your own thread on why you should use what ever oil.

 

[24tacoman]

I just did an oil change at 75,000km with 5w30 for the summer heat, and wow there is a massive difference in how quiet the engine is at idle. Oil pressure is the same as 0w20 throughout the RPM range once it is up to temperature, but slightly (less than 1/4 of a bar) higher when it is cold. I did not think there would be this much of a difference, and will likely continue to use 5w30 until September when it cools down here. I will also try to get a UOA with the 5w30 and compare it to the 0w20 UOA I had done at 25,000 km to compare. The engine feels and sounds very healthy on 5w30, but that is purely subjective evidence and I look forward to confirming this with objective UOA data in 5k km. So far, so good!

Edit: I am using Pennzoil Ultra Platinum for both 0w20 and 5w30, which is known to have a low base viscosity for its rated weight (it is a lighter oil)

 

[DENNISD]

Once again no one cares what oil you use, you're the only one trying to defend a position Dennis. This thread is for people to post oil analysis so that we can all learn what works and doesn't, not only by weight but also by brand and additives. Post an analysis, or start your own thread on why you should use what ever oil.

I'm not telling anyone what oil they have to use.

I've said repeatedly that if someone wants to run 5W-30 or 0W-30 within Toyota's globally approved viscosity range, that's their decision.

What I've challenged are the conclusions being drawn from the data.

I have no issue with people posting UOAs. They're useful for monitoring engine condition and identifying trends over time. What I disagree with is using one or two UOAs to conclude that one viscosity is superior to another. That's simply more than a UOA can demonstrate on its own.

If this thread stays focused on collecting data, that's great. The more quality data we have, the better.

Where I entered the discussion was when people started claiming that 5W-30 is demonstrably better for durability in the T24A-FTS. That's a different claim than simply sharing oil analyses, and it deserves a higher standard of evidence.

 

[32spoke]

I just did an oil change at 75,000km with 5w30 for the summer heat, and wow there is a massive difference in how quiet the engine is at idle. Oil pressure is the same as 0w20 throughout the RPM range once it is up to temperature, but slightly (less than 1/4 of a bar) higher when it is cold. I did not think there would be this much of a difference, and will likely continue to use 5w30 until September when it cools down here. I will also try to get a UOA with the 5w30 and compare it to the 0w20 UOA I had done at 25,000 km to compare. The engine feels and sounds very healthy on 5w30, but that is purely subjective evidence and I look forward to confirming this with objective UOA data in 5k km. So far, so good!

Edit: I am using Pennzoil Ultra Platinum for both 0w20 and 5w30, which is known to have a low base viscosity for its rated weight (it is a lighter oil)

For countries that don’t force fuel economy upon the entire manufacturer’s vehicle platforms…. From the vehicle manufacturer’s own suggestion(s)…

 

[rijc99]

It doesn’t say only 5W-30 is recommended. It says 0W-20, 5W-20 OR 5W-30. All three are recommended over 10W-30 or higher. I read it to say for the general public who uses it as a daily runner and does not push high sustained speeds or under extreme load conditions, the preferred oil is 0W-20 which is the factory fill. To me all three seem fine for the truck And up to your personal preference. Also it seems like they prefer B. But allow you to adjust depending on your indivisual use case.

 

[32spoke]

It doesn’t say only 5W-30 is recommended. It says 0W-20, 5W-20 OR 5W-30. All three are recommended over 10W-30 or higher. I read it to say for the general public who uses it as a daily runner and does not push high sustained speeds or under extreme load conditions, the preferred oil is 0W-20 which is the factory fill. To me all three seem fine for the truck And up to your personal preference. Also it seems like they prefer B. But allow you to adjust depending on your indivisual use case.

All the oil viscosity options oils are suitable but for various temperatures, with significant overlap. Thinner oils are more thermally conductive but generally fail at temperatures that thicker oils can still provide film strength. When towing near Yuma in August, I’ll run an oil spec that Toyota recommends, but not for the United States market. The more oil samples of various viscosities and brands, that are submitted for this engine, will create an empirical data set that we can all appreciate

 

[rijc99]

That may be but what I was pointing out is your highlighting is misleading since it appears you are inferring that it is THE recommended oil when it’s not what the manual says at all. And as far as I know Australia is not subject to cafe but they still recommend and factory fill 0w-20.

I run a combo of 5w30 and 0w20 since I do occasionally Offroad. And I do oil changes every 3,000 miles. 5,000 at most. Just my personal preference.

 

[rijc99]

Re read your pdf. Based on it, the Australian Market vehicles are prefilled with 0W-20. Preferred is 0W20. 0W20 OR 5W20 OR 5W30 are recommended over 10W30 in certain conditions. Higher than 20 viscosity may be used if you run at sustain high speeds or extreme load conditions.

So if you’re filling based on the Australian market and NOT US market, you should be using the listed preferred oil which is B 0W20.

I personally think all three they listed are fine. But if you want what Toyota prefers in Australia then you should be using 0W20.

 

[DENNISD]

It doesn’t say only 5W-30 is recommended. It says 0W-20, 5W-20 OR 5W-30. All three are recommended over 10W-30 or higher. I read it to say for the general public who uses it as a daily runner and does not push high sustained speeds or under extreme load conditions, the preferred oil is 0W-20 which is the factory fill. To me all three seem fine for the truck And up to your personal preference. Also it seems like they prefer B. But allow you to adjust depending on your indivisual use case.

I agree.

I think we've probably reached the point where we're just going in circles. (well, maybe 18 pages ago)

There seems to be broad agreement that Toyota approves multiple viscosities globally and that 0W-20, 5W-20, and 5W-30 can all be acceptable depending on the market and operating assumptions.

Where I continue to disagree with some other poster's is whether 5W-30 actually produces better long-term durability in the T24A-FTS. Right now, that's an inference—not something that's been demonstrated with controlled testing on this engine.

Hopefully, as more UOAs are posted and, perhaps someday, more comprehensive testing becomes available, we'll have better evidence to answer that question.

Until then, everyone is making the decision they believe is best based on the information available.

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